SB 1440 Discussion Board

This discussion board is for questions related to the SB1440 legislation.  We welcome questions on this important topic. If your question is particular to counseling issues, please click on the discussion board for the AA-T/AS-T discussion.  If you're not sure which board to post to, please review the previous questions.  Thank you. 

Comments

Definition of AS

The definition of AS adopted by the ASCCC is that "AS" would refer to STEM AND CTE. Therefore, AJ or CJ would be referred to as an AS due to the CTE nature of the discipline.

AJ/Criminal Justice TMC-Is this considered a vocational degree?

Will we need LMI data for the AJ/CJ TMC based degrees (or any of the others in Groups 1,2,3)?
It looks like a "transfer" degree but I thought presenters in one of the CCConfer sessions used it as an example of one that required LMI data...please confirm or deny : )!Thanks!

CTE TMC-aligned Degrees

This is a question for the Chancellor's Office. Please see www.cccco.edu/1440 - the answer should be clearly stated there.

New AA-T/AS-T Catalog Descriptors

Will you be providing a common description for the new majors?  I am specifically talking about the major descriptor for the college catalog for students to read. 

Descriptions

As stated elsewhere, until we know more about the degrees and what they do, no such generic language can be provided.

Definition of "Assigned" C-ID Designation for TMC

Is there a difference between "Assigned" C-ID designation and approved C-ID courses?
The Transfer Documentation that is required for proposed AA-T degress requires documentation of
1. Assigned C-ID designation or; 2. Assigned TCSU number etc.
Can you please explain what is meant by "Assigned" C-ID designation.  On our campus "Assigned" is being assumed to mean approved-yet the only currently approved C-ID courses are the ones that had prior TCSU numbers.   Are CCC faculty allowed to self-identify their courses that they believe match the C-ID descriptor for purposes of TMC submission?   Thanks

C-ID

When submitting a TMC-aligned degree, you just need to indicate that your courses "match" the C-ID descriptor - where appropriate. So, yes, CCC faculty are allowed to self-identify for the purpose of these degrees.

Local Admission

If a community college's 'local admission' CSU does not deem a TMC (EX Communications) as similar to their Baccalaureate degree. Would the AA-T degree be accepted at closest CSU that has deemed a similar degree? I am not sure if this can be answered yet; however it may need to be considered.

TMC

The "acceptance" of a TMC is not location-bound. Aspects related to "local admission", priority, and other admissions-related topics are not yet known. When we have that sort of information, you can be sure it will be shared.

AP Credit

Have you discussed how AP credit will be applied with these degrees?  Can it only be used for the GE or can it be used to meet major requirements?

AP

It is not clear why AP and its application to AA-T and AS-T degrees would be any different than current practices with respect to AP use in degrees. Can you expand on this question?

using assist.org rather than TMC for transfer degrees

Can a community college submit the following as a blanket coverage for all its AA-T and AS-T degrees?
  "Any student completing the requirements specified in the articulation agreement found at assist.org for the intended major and transfer institution will receive an associate transfer degree provided that the student completes 60 total units.  These 60 units must include completion of either the IGETC or CSU GE coursework."
I understand that the Chancellor's office may not expedite approval since such a degree proposal doesn't include the much anticipated TMC.  The TMC appears to be a compromise list of courses that may not be the best advice for students with a specific transfer institution in mind.

Blanket Coverage

No. Any degree that a community college is awarding must be approved the the Chancellor's Office. While the TMC may indicate "a course that meets X requirements", a CCC degree must list specific courses. This has always been a requirement when seeking degree approval.
 
Creating a non-TMC aligned degree is an option if aligning with the TMC does not make sense for your college or for a given major.

Napa Valley College Question

Napa Valley College has a question. When will we know which CSU our students will automatically be accepted into? We are assuming it will be Sonoma State University but will it include Sacramento State University as well? It would be nice to have a list.

www.c-id.net

Please visit the C-ID website. The CSUs that have indicated that the 1st 3 TMC are "similar" to their majors are provided in a document that is available just beneath the finalized TMCs.

Just to clarify what you are

Just to clarify what you are saying:
If someone earns a 1440 degree from Napa Valley College, they will have priority at any of the CSU's which has accepted that particular 1440 degree, not just the CSU's close to us.

Nothing known about priority.

I don't think I've said anything about priority. Priority is one of those topics where we do not yet have any information. When information on priority is available, it will be shared. But there is no information to share at this time.

Finalized TMC's for Criminal Studies, Kinesiology, and Math?

According to the calendar on the C-ID website, the finalized TMC's for Criminal Studies, Kinesiology, and Math are supposed to be available to colleges today (March 14).  I don't see them on the C-ID website yet.  Is there an estimated time/day we can expect them?  Thank you.

Finalized Group 2 TMCs

This week we are working on determining what the "Group 3" disciplines will be - and determining which of the Group 2 are "final". Math has been finalized - and it is posted on the C-ID website. PE/Kinesiology is not and AJ is still being reviewed. The final determination should be made on Monday (March 21). When it was reviewed by the Intersegmental Curriculum Workgroup, several questions emerged. We do apologize for the delay.

Group 3

Both the AJ and Kinesiology/TMCs will be vetted again. Math is the only finalized TMC from Group 3 at this time.

Utility of degrees at non-local service area schools

Do we have assurances from the CSUs that they will accept the AATs as lower division preparation for acceptance into the major -- if students are applying out of their local service area?  For instance, most of the students in our Comm area want to go to CSULB, CSUF, SDSU, CSULA, or CSUF.  Each has a list of lower division courses they want students to take to be admitted to their major.  Do the degrees COVER these, or could the CSUs require additional courses of students with the AAT Comm to be admitted?
If the answer is no, the AAT-COMM degree is nearly useless for the majority of our COMM students.  It could even prohibit them from achieveing successful transfer to an appropriate school for their major (if they take the wrong classes in the sequences).  It would also be massively confusing to them.  We would need to call our degree "AAT in Comm but only to Cal Poly Pomona."  Is it really useless anywhere else? 
Thanks for your help... 

Degree Utility

We are ACTIVELY working on this right now - I am on a call related to this topic at this very moment. What we do know now is that there are 16 CSUs that have indicated that they can make a TMC-aligned degree "work". You can see this list on the C-ID website. As we have more information, we will share it. We're currently seeking to nail down details regarding admission. This is very much a work in progress - patience is much appreciated.

MATH TMC

The Mathematics TMC was to be finalized on February 25. We have not heard or received a final TMC yet. Any word on when that will be posted? We are ready to go, here at Reedley College.

Timeline

The "Group 2" TMC ended their vetting period on February 28. Any resulting finalized TMC will be posted early next week (on or just after March 14). After the vetting concludes, the Faculty Discipline Review Group (FDRG) has to meet to review and respond to the feedback received. Once they have completed this process, the Intersegmental Curriculum Workgroup reviews the work of the FDRG. If everything is in order, then the finalized TMC is posted.

Psychology TMC & List A & C Courses

We've carefully read the PSY TMC and comments.  For list A, indications are that this should (or needs to be) a biologically bases course, preferabley one designated CSU GE B4.  However, could physiological psychology be submitted?  This course does not have B4 or life sciences designation nor does it have a biology pre-requisite.  However, it does deal with physiological processes....
The Pyschology Department would very much like to list jsut this course for List A.
In addition, can just one course be listed for C as a requirement for our TMC?  Again, we've carefully read the guidelines and it appears that one course could be in this area thus requiring it for our TMC.
Thank you!
 

Psych TMC Questions

Greetings! Your physio psychology course does not have to carry the possible GE certification indicated. It does, however, need to match the C-ID descriptor. If it does, then you can include it. And having that as the only List A option is fine - and makes sense of that is the selection most commonly desired by the CSUs to whom you feed.
 
Yes, you can have just one course in List C - provided that course either has articulation as major prep or GE at a CSU. No TMC can be designed so as to mandate that a student take a course that does not fill a specific transfer function (i.e., GE or major prep).

Physics TMC

As my college's Physics degree is in the process of being built, I notice that the TMC requirements for the Physics major is less course work than the articulation agreements we have with our local CSU. Our Physics premajor prep in far more units than the TMC. How will the CSUs view students transferring into majors such as Physics that have far more premajor prep than what is required in the TMC? Will they view them as underprepared for the major even though they have an SB 1440 degree?

Physics TMC vs Major Prep - A word from the lead for physics

One of the challenges that the Physics FDRG had to deal with was finding a way to create a TMC that would allow the majority of community colleges to create an aligned degree. To meet the 60 unit requirement was not an easy task because very little double counting of GE was possible. We decided that this was the best that we could do with 60 units and our CSU faculty agreed that this was more than many transferring physics majors would have completed. We encourage colleges to have counselors recommend that students take additional major preparation beyond the degree reqrememnts. The student could transfer an additional 10 units but we were not allowed to require that.

Physics TMC - and other "higher unit" majors...

In order for a degree to conform to the 1440 requirements, it must meet the 1440 requirements. This means "fitting" major prep and GE into 60 semester units. In the case of many of the highly sequenced science majors, this may mean not including courses that are generally required at the CSU. The legislation establishes our 60-unit majors as the preparation for transfer.
It is our understanding that these degrees will be accepted as preparation - again, that is what the legislation calls for. We're still working out many of the admission-related details, hence my rather tentative responses.
It should be noted that you can always encourage and advise students to do more than what the degree calls for. The CSU will still consider units beyond the 60 to the extent that they always have.

MATH AS-T Linear Algebra Requirement

The Math TMC includes a course in Linear Algebra.  At Fullerton College we have two courses with those words in the title - Math 250BF and Math 172 F.  The course content of both courses includes every item from the list of required topics posted on the website. However, the prerequisite for CAN MATH 26 Linear Algebra as described on the TMC document is Calculus II, which would be our Math 150BF. 
The prerequisite for our Math 172 F is Math 141 F College Algebra and 142 F Trig. 
So, question one is:
Does this difference in prerequisites prohibit our including Math 172 F as an option for the linear algebra requirement?
And question two…
If we cannot include MATH 172 F for the linear algebra requirement, can we include it as a restricted elective for the MATH AS-T?
Our MATH 172 F is articulated as major prep for CSUF, our most local campus.
Please advise. Thanks!
 

Linear Algebra

Sorry for the delay - I thought it best to go to the math FDRG with this question. And here is the answer provided - this may be more information than you were looking for - but I think it helps to "reveal" the thinking that went into the TMC. They were all designed to facilitate the development of degrees that really "work" for transfer.
 
"They could use their 5 unit Math 250BF which has a prerequisite of Calculus II.  The other course is not for Math majors, hence the lower prerequisite.  The FDRG did discuss having it as an option in Group B, and opted not to put it as an alternative.  I believe we were concerned that it would not count towards the BS degree, unlike Statistics which would be used by CC's near CSU Stanislaus.  CSU Stanislaus required Statistics.  We were concerned the Linear Algebra course with a lower prerequisite would be for Engineering majors or other majors and not Math majors.  Since most CC's can only offer one type of Linear Algebra course, we wanted to make sure to include in the TMC what was accepted at most of the CSU's.  Since Fullerton College does offer Math 250, couldn't they put that in their AS-T and not Math 172?  Would CPP accept their Math 172?  My concern is that only CSU Fullerton will accept it and there are other local CSU's, e.g. CPP, who would not accept it, hence if Fullerton College  included Math 172 in its AS-T then this degree would be valid or useful for only CSU Fullerton and not for CPP."

Degree catalog description

Is there going to be a "standardized" catalog descripton for the TMC degrees, or should we simply compose our own?

Degree catalog description

We've provided general "placeholder" language. Due to the many uncertainties, the many unknowns, we have not been able to provide any sort of standard explanation for specific majors. We don't quite yet know what all these degrees will and won't do for students - so we are holding off on that for the time being.

Catalog description required for degree! Need samples! Wing it?

We need catalog descriptions in order to approve these new degrees locally and for the application for State approval!  Could you please post samples of "approvable" degree descriptions so we know what needs to be addressed to get these approved by the state?
If any of these AA-Ts have been approved the catalog descriptions used for those could be shared without any additional writing required.
We could wing it but since we are all developing the same degrees (with some differences in specific courses to meet requirements) collaboration seems important here.
We have a Curriculum Committee approval deadline this month and could use some help!
Please advise. Thanks!

Language - Anyone want to share?

Given all the unknowns, we gave up on trying to do more than just placeholder language at this time. When we know more, we can go back and work on that. If anyone wants to share language, please go ahead and respond here.

Sociology TMC

Under List C of the Sociology TMC, 3 units can be selected from "Any course not selected....or introductory course in the social sciences."  There is some confusion on this campus regarding the introductory course in the social sciences.  Since "course" is singular, I am assuming it is a survey course, however, the department is thinking that it means any intro courses to the social sciences, like Intro to Social Welfare, Amerian Pluralism, or Changing Roles of Women which are housed in the social sciences on this campus.  Any clarification would be appreciated.

"Intro Course in the Social Sciences"

It is my understanding that the intent was to permit your typical intro level courses in the social sciences - your courses of the "101" variety. Generally, these are courses that are major prep in their respective discipline. Note, of course, if any of those courses are CSU-transferable sociology courses they are an option.
 
List C reads:"Any courses not selected above, any CSU transferable sociology courses, and/or other courses (in or outside the discipline) that are articulated as lower division major preparation for the Sociology major at a CSU (e.g. Cultural Anthropology, General Psychology) or introductory course in the social sciences."

Proposed Mathematics TMC

The suggested TMC for Mathematics includes a common core. The student is then given options from two groups of courses, Group A and Group B. The wording of the TMC is
Choose a minimum of 6 units from below with at least 3 units from Group A.
Group A
 
Differential Equations     3
Linear Algebra              3
 
Can we add a course to Group A but keep the instruction as written? If we do, students could essentially forgo both Differential Equations AND Linear Algebra. We have been told that we can move courses UP from Group B to Group A but not DOWN from Group A to Group B. By placing an additional course in Group A, again, this would allow students to NOT take a TMC-listed class from Group A.
 
One idea may be to change the wording for Group A to read "at least 6 units from Group A". This is not the intent of our faculty. They do not want to require the students to take the course they are adding to Group A. They want it as an option.
 
Again, can we add a course to Group A and allow students to forgo both Differential Equations AND Linear Algebra?

Math TMC

Just some things to note.
1. It is great to be having a serious discussion about the courses in a TMC before it is finalized, but keep in mind that it is not yet finalized until it is. While I don't think math will be changing, it always could. If it is ready to finalized, it will be posted the week of March 14.
2. Respect the intent of the TMC - keep that in mind.
 
I'm answering your question based on memory and what you have said. 
Looking at:
Choose a minimum of 6 units from below with at least 3 units from Group A.
Group A
Differential Equations     3
Linear Algebra              3 
 
I think we can agree that the INTENT is that a student be required to take one or the other (Differential Equations or Linear Algebra). If you wanted to add another option from below (Group B) and then require 6 units from Group A, that would work - you would still be consistent with the intent of the TMC - the student would be required to take at least one of the original Group A options. If you have not had a look at the sample math degrees in the "TMC Overview" document, I would encourage you to do so. 

CSU acceptance of TMC

Jane's email says that 18 CSUs will accept Psych and Soc and 16 will accept Communication.  How can we find out which CSUs are willing to accept which TMC?

Determination of "Similar"

The results of the CSU's determination of "similar" for each of the 1st 3 finalized TMCs can now be found at www.c-id.net - it is right under each of the finalized TMCs. 

Pass along courses in CCC AA degrees

What is the postion of the CSU with respect to 1440 on "pass along" courses approved for an AA degree by a community college for a TMC?

Pass Along in AA-T and AS-T

I'm not sure what meaning of "pass along" this is about. If this is regarding the pass along of courses for GE, I have not heard any concerns expressed. If this is regarding the concept of pass along for courses within a TMC, the same holds true. When a CSU indicates that a given TMC is "similar", they are indicating that they can make a TMC-aligned degree work - not a specific degree as developed by a given CCC. Given that, there should not be any concern if CCCs are choosing to honor one another's course determinations (i.e., allowing for TMC consistent substitutions). In other words, if my psych degree permitted only biopsych for the 1st list with options in the TMC, we could opt to honor other courses that were "pass alongs" - such as bio courses used in that same place in the TMC at other colleges.
 
Note - there has been concern expressed by CSU with respect to course substitutions. They are concerned about inappropriate course substitutions and have asked for some assurances in this area. A "pass along" policy would not be an "inappropriate" substitution. If I have completely confused you, please post a question telling me what I need to clarify.
 
Thanks!

CSU criteria for accepting courses as general education

What entity in the CSU (and the UC, for that matter) is responsible for determining the criteria for accepting courses as appropriate for general education?  I ask because double counting major prep courses as gen ed is a very important component to making a transfer degree plan (TMC) work--particularly for majors that consist of highly sequential, high-unit lower-division preparation.
Does the ASCCC, through ICAS, have any influence over this process?  Would a resolution requesting a review and revision of CSU/UC general education criteria give the ASCCC the opportunity to initiate such a discussion?
In particular, it would be helpful for the CSU to accept experiential courses in fine and performing arts as satisfying a portion of their 9 unit Area C requirement.  It has always seemed ludicrous to discipline faculty in the arts that courses about art (appreciation), by virtue of their acceptance as gen ed, are regarded as helping to make a well-rounded and educated person, but that courses that allow participation in making art, by virtue of their current exclusion from gen ed, do not.  Certainly no one would propose substituting "History of Math" for an actual math course as general education, yet this is exactly the position in which the arts disciplines currently find themselves.

CSU and UC GE

This is really not a 1440, TMC, or C-ID question - but I understand why it is being brought up here. ;-) There are established procedures and criteria for having a course approved for CSU GE and/or IGETC. If the ASCCC were to advocate for any special considerations, this would have to be initiated by a resolution. 

What about articulation?

I had an interesting conversation today with a number of people who were concerned with whether creating new courses to complete a TMC on our campus would have difficulty getting "articulated". Apparently the normal articulation process can take up to a year (getting three CSU's to agree to accept a course). I seemed to be the only one who thought that all of that was no longer relevant and that one of the main purposes of 1440 was to make it so that if a course is listed as one of the approved C-ID courses, that they are by definition articulated with all CSU's. I am also assuming that if a course is in a TMC, it already has an approved C-ID number. Am I wrong?

TMCs and Articulation

The TMCs are a mix with respect to whether or not there is a C-ID descriptor for the courses. If there is a C-ID descriptor and your course(s) are consistent with it, then you do not have to establish articulation (your courses do, of course, have to be transferable to the CSU). Where there is no descriptor and articulation is called for, then that articulation needs to be established. Communication studies and sociology have used descriptors quite extensively. In psychology, there are currently only descriptors in development for 2 additional courses that might potentially be major prep - and colleges that have those courses would likely have the articulation in place.
 
In order to "have" the articulation in place as called for in a TMC, you need only have articulation with one CSU. There should be existing descriptors for the courses that you are required to have. Where you have choices - such as a course that is articulated as major prep - you should be using your existing articulation.In addition, once we do have more finalized descriptors you would have that route to articulation.

What if GE + Major < 60 units?

There are still a couple of things I'm confused about. Our CSU-GE can be over 39 units depending on the courses selected. Are we just certifying 39 units of GE and ignoring the rest (any additional units)? It's possible that a college could have fewer or more that 60 units when combining GE and major and not have 2 or 1 unit courses that would hit 60 spot on. What is the alternative in these situations? My feeble mind wants to know. ;-)

GE + TMC > 60?

This isn't a reply but a follow-up question.  The proposed TMC for Physics consists of 27 units.  Double-counting a math and physics class as GE means students need an additional 33 units of GE (3 units in each of the other GE categories).  However, Engl 1A, a required class  for which there is no alternative, is 4 units at our campus.  Thus, students will have to take 34 units of additional GE plus the 27 units in the TMC, for a total of 61 units.  Students can't be required to take more than 60 units for these degrees, though, so what happens in a case like this?

Less than 60...

The degrees must be designed such that the student can finish the required coursework within 60 units. There is no expectation that a student would have all courses dictated by the college. Ideally, students are permitted to do some exploration within the 60 CSU transferable units for the degree.